32 Ford

[dcarelli]

Ok so looking back at all the old CARC photos and other cars around the country it seems that a greater number of CARC cars have always been a 32 Ford, 3 window, 5 window, and sedan. Where as if you look at other places they went on to 36's and 40's among others. Is this due to something in the rules or just preference?

Thanks,
Donny Carelli:checker::confused::checker:

[Quick Time]

Hey Donny,

I'll offer a brief explanation but I bet Professor Coupe will have the best and correct answer. The 32 frame had a 106 inch wheelbase while 33 and later are 6 inches longer at 112. The 106 length proved to be best on tight short tracks 1/5, 1/4 even good on 1/3. I know many of the Model A bodied cars were on a 32 frames. I also think the later bodies were heavier mass working against the center of gravity.

Hope this helps.

Chuck

[Thomas E]

I too offer the following . . .

If memory serves me right, in 1952, when the CARC moved permanently to the Lakeside Speedway a 1/5 mile oval, cars remained the same for only one year. Driver Pete Ducker discovered that the Ford 1932 3-window coupe could be had in factory trim with the venerable "Flathead V-8".

This more powerful engine inside a much smaller, lighter and more nimble car could easily outrun the other larger heavier coupes and sedans, and Ducker won the 1952 track championship going away.

Pete Ducker's final race. (http://autoracingmemories.com/forums/showpost.php?p=570&postcount=4)





Sorry this fuzzy, this a thumbnail of Pete Ducker's '32 Ford 5-window he ran at lLakeside. 1953. When I find my full 8 x10 photo I'll scan it and attach it. Pete is second from the left.

[carc7]

Hello again, Donnie! In a few short, untechnical terms, the '32s came with flathead V-8s and were lighter than the later big cars from the late 30's and early 40's. They were also shorter and therefore more nimble through traffic. When the CARC came to Lakeside from Englewood in '52, many of the cars were still the bigger cars. Pete Ducker found that 32's with an "8" in the chassis number meant that it came with the V-8, and the HP/Weight ratio was much better, and the car could move through traffic much easier. Thus began the switch to the smaller '32s and Model A's, which came with 4-cylinder engines. The club then allowed cars to trade engines within the car family (Ford, Chevrolet, Hudson, etc.) and the V-8s found their way into the Model A chassis. This was the beginning of the "semi-modified" cars, rather than the "stock cars" that they were previously, because they truly were STOCK cars before that. This would have occurred during the late 1950's. By the time your Dad starting racing, they were really pretty well on the modified road, and Jerry Malloy was starting to build or modify the chassis with the specific intent of turning left.

[lakeside #29]

Donnie, part of the reason that newer model year cars were used in other parts of the country, especially on the east coast was lack of supply of the older cars. In rust belt states where, huge amounts of salt was laid on the streets in the winter the old cars got eaten up by rust. In western states like here in Colorado you could find early '30's cars more easily.
The '32 Ford didn't immediately take over, many '33 and '34 Fords were used up in the '50's and early '60's. As stated above the Deuce frame had a shorter wheelbase and was considerably lighter. The Deuce had a 2 crossleaf spring suspension which was a lot easier to set-up than a Chevy or a Plymouth which had 4 springs. The '32 Ford frame was stamped from 11 gauge (.120") steel was very strong and could take plenty of abuse. The rails were 6" high. There was a good bit of interchangeability on early Fords, so putting together running gear was pretty simple. As time went on the supply of bodies began to dwindle and you started to to see more Model A's. In the early '60's you could still find A's in farmer's fields. They supposedly were a lighter body. As for the Model A chassis, I personally don't remember anyone running one at Lakeside. They were lighter and not as suitable for a full size modified.
The frame rails were shorter and only about 4" high and narrower than a '32. They sat much higher in stock form than a Deuce. You would have to "Z" the rear of an A frame to lower it. "Z"ing is cutting the frame, usually just ahead of the rear end and adding a slightly angled vertical piece to it to bridge the gap. This would lower the main section of the frame. I'm sure Model A and Model T frames were probably used in earlry Jet coupes or early super modifieds.
As a kind of footnote, when I worked for Gene Plue in the early '70's he told me that in 1955 he had whole yard across the street from his shop full '32's and '34's that he was trying to sell. Most were complete and running. After one guy too many tried to chisel him on the price he got mad and scrapped the whole lot.

[parrot]

Oh! Chris, I hate to hear stories like that, (the Gene Plue story) but I've heard them also, and know they're true. Look at what those things are worth now. I don't want to tell what I paid for one ten years ago, and they've at least doubled in price in the decade since. And that's just for a basket of parts. Finding one in a barn that is still mostly whole happens, but is rare. Just navigating some of the sites eluded to on this site shows that during those early years everybody used up a lot of good older cars for racing, but then, what else would they be used for? Had I been a little older then, I'd have done the same thing. More guys wanted them for racing than for hot rods.

Anyway Donnie, you've gotten a lot of good info from the others. I'll just add a little here. On the frames for the early coupes at Lakeside, because of the light construction of the model A frame, the CARC rulebook required '32 or new frames, even though bodies could be used back to 1928. (Probably why a lot of the old program features referred to the car as a "thirty two" when it appeared to the reader to be a Model A) One exception may have been the '31 Chevy. Not sure when that frame rule came into being, but remember one 1931 Chevy racing with the CARC as early as 1954. Guessing '31 Chevy frames were similar if not the same as those from '32 since those cars were pretty much the same generation. Not so with Ford. All new in 1932 with heavier frame as described by "professor coupe".

Another reason that '37-'40 were the car of choice on the east coast was the NASCAR affiliation. During the formative years (late forties into the sixties) the Sportsman and Sportsman Modified cars were required to use bodies with 'turet' top construction, that is, no open top that had been filled with that tar like covering found mostly on automobiles from 1936 on back. GM bodies were the exception back to the '35 Chevy Master. Other organizations, such as the CARC, allowed the older models as long as those openings in the tops were covered with sheet metal. Just needed a way to exit the car in those days, so kept at least one of the doors operationsal, tied closed with a belt during a race. Somewhere around 1957, that rule was relaxed, bodies were trimmed out even more leaving just a 'skin', doors welded shut to add ridgidity to the body and the tops left open as way out in an emergency. The jalopy circuits from Kansas to Texas, and California had already been doing this. As others have said, the '32-'34 cars were lighter, and also the factory engine set-back was more conducive to handling. I explained this a little more in depth in the "Thirty Four Ford Story", on this site elsewhere.

[dcarelli]

WOW, You guys are awesome. I just learned alot. I hope this was informative for someone else as well.....

[dcarelli]

Ok so one more dumb question along those same lines. Looking back to the 1960's and on you really don't see the Ford Mustangs really used. As either late models in the 60's and 70's or as bombers in the 80's and 90's.

[carc7]

Donnie: I know just a few things about Mustangs vs. Camaros. First, Ford overhead valve V-8s are a little heavier than Chevy. Performance parts were easier to find, and less expensive, for the Chevvies than the Fords in the early years. Camaros had a slightly wider stance, making for better cornering. I know that Wayne Stallsworth drove a really nice, and fast, Mustang for Doenges-Glass. Also, Fords took a lot more machine work to get to breathe better, because in the case of the 351, the ports were 1/2 of the length of the intake runner. Ford factory intake manifolds were also MUCH heavier than Chevy. Maybe some more of the experts can add more info.

[Mitch G.]

Auto Racing Memories has the best "Faculty" on the net, every time I read these posts I learn things I never knew before! The old saying "Those who can, do. Those who can't, teach" The difference between our "Teachers, and Professor's" is that they can, and did!

[thpracing]

Yeah..paul the old ford vs chevy debate---another reason you didn't see many fords locally--especially lakeside--some of the old rules stated no engines larger than 350 ci before boring--wich left the cleves out--I,m talking strictly about the higher classes here--when we first started, we tried small and big block fords as we had a lot of old ford c%$%p laying around--holding doors open, etc---the 289-302 motors were to small and the 390+ motors were too big for lakeside--Ricky P. Parker---the P in THP--ran a merc in 80-81 with a 351c in it and it was an expenswive motor to maintain and build--we then went Mopar and the rest is history---kt...ps---before I went stock car racing, I was a drag/street racer locally---71 to 75...big block chevelle---never got beat by a ford---and at Lakeside--same thing---don't get me wrong, there were fords racing--but I think the avaiability of go-fast parts for chevys---pretty much set the tone for that era--kt...ppppssss...steve and I are looking for any sheetmetal for 1928 fords--have a front half from and old Ronnie Lee car and back half from org. 28--any help---kevin

[carc7]

KT: Call Kenny Bennett at 303-893-4239. If he doesn't have a body handy, he'll know who does.

[lakeside #29]

Donnie, in the '60's and '70's there were a variety of Ford engines available. There was the Y-block, the big block, and the smallblock. The Y-block could be made to perform very well but lacked the performance potential of the smallblock Chevy. The Y-block was a popular engine at Englewood Speedway in the figure 8' where their low end torque was an advantage. The Y-block was also heavier than a Chevy. There wasn't much in the line of factory speed parts that you could use on a short track. They had run in NASCAR in the '50's and had been equipted with a centrifugal supercharger. They also offered a dual 4 barrel set up most often seen in Thunderbirds. All this wasn't useable on local tracks. The big block benefitted from many factory hot rod parts many aimed at drag racing. These also ran NASCAR. They had some trick 427's with crossbolt main caps and tunnel port heads. Darrell Stingerie had an awsome 427 that he ran in a Torino and a Mustang. I believe Fritz Wilson also ran one in his Comet Late model. Ford also had a single overhead cam big block. I seem to remember NASCAR banned it, so most of it's glory came in drag racing. The big block was a very heavy engine. It made it hard to set up a car with so much nose weight. The smallblock Ford was a neat engine. It was a thin walled casting and was lighter than a smallblock Chevy and would rev freely. It debuted as a 221 and grew to 260 for the Mustang and went to 289 and later 302. It eventaully became a 351. The small Ford had small ports but all that changed with the 351. The later 400, 429 and 460 can be traced to this line of engines.

There were two 351's. A Windsor and a Cleveland, named for their cities of origin. Followed by the Boss 302 and Boss 351. These two had huge ports. It seemed like you could stick your hand up them. This design is what engine builders like Robert Yates, Ernie Elliot, and Jack Roush developed for use in NASCAR. Butch Wallace ran a Boss 302 in his Modified at Lakeside in the early '70's. The Mustang that Wayne Stallsworth ran at Englewood was the work of Ralph Young. It was rumored at the time that he imported engine parts from Australia. Supposedly the Aussie parts such as crankshafts were better quality than the US counterparts. Mr. Young invested a sizeable about of money in his engines.

[thpracing]

hey prof---there was also the 351 M for michigan motor--i have also heard this refered to as a 351 modified---its been about 30 years, so I don't remember which ford family it was related to--I know the windsor and cleve motors were different in ther basic design, and I think the M motor had roots in the cleve design---I'm not a Ford man---chevy and dodge pls---straight up---kt

[superstroke]

All I know is that when Wayne Stallsworths Mustang was on...nothing could touch it. But when it exploded...there was nothing left. The explosions, I have heard, happened quite regularly and were very costly. Funny though, the Ford straight sixes were more economical than the Chevy sixes in the modified division.

[thpracing]

I was off by a year the other nite when I was looking for body parts---Its a 1927 model T 2door ---tall body with the flat roof---we hve Ronnie Lees maroon #8 cowl and partial door panels---and we have the back half---(rear door jams back and no trunk lid--the only other bod we have is last years and it would need to be cut and widened 2-3 inches to be legal next year. We are thinking of bringing the T car out as a "rat rod" style c-mod---flat black and chopped?---maybe superstroke can pinstripe it???---kt